In case you’re wondering, part 5 is the Comments on Debunking Holocaust Denial post. In fact, for convenience, I’ll just link to them all right here so as you can get some background on the stuff being argued here:
- Part 1: https://theanomaloushost.org/2019/07/25/re-debunking-holocaust-denial-part-1/
- Part 2: https://theanomaloushost.org/2019/07/26/re-debunking-holocaust-denial-part-2/
- Part 3: https://theanomaloushost.org/2019/07/26/re-debunking-the-holocaust-denial-part-3/
- Part 4: https://theanomaloushost.org/2019/07/28/re-debunking-holocaust-denial-part-4/
- Part 5: https://theanomaloushost.org/2019/07/29/comments-on-the-holocaust-denial/
- Bonus: Review on Schindler’s List where I make some historical commentary relevant to this discussion: https://theanomaloushost.org/2019/08/06/schindlers-list-1993-review/
Edit (6-19-2021): some additional links:
- Part 7: https://theanomaloushost.org/2020/03/29/re-debunking-holocaust-denial-part-7/
- Holocaust Twitter Wars part 1: https://theanomaloushost.org/2020/05/20/holocaust-twitter-wars-part-1-anne-frankly-torture-is-offensive/
- Holocaust Twitter Wars part 2: https://theanomaloushost.org/2020/05/20/holocaust-twitter-wars-part-2-boycotts-and-reparations/
- Holocaust Twitter Wars part 3: https://theanomaloushost.org/2020/05/20/holocaust-twitter-wars-part-3-poland-provocation-fdr-territory-grabs-and-the-cause-for-deaths-at-the-camps/
- Thoughts on Mein Kampf Chapter 2 (part 2): https://theanomaloushost.org/2020/08/26/thoughts-on-mein-kampf-chapter-2-part-2/
So, I managed to get into a debate with a fellow named elias (extremely limited intelligence and such; nah I’m sorry, that’s being mean, it stands for extraordinary large intelligence archaic superstar) over the previous posts in the series. A discussion that got big enough in the comments section, with enough worthy additions, that I decided to include the bulk of the discussion here. However, it is worth noting that I won’t include certain posts. Primarily because they either contribute little to nothing, or because I already deleted them because they contributed little other than insults (I want the insults bundled with constructive criticism thank you very much, which thankfully does happen at one point as you will see). Or because I’ve bundled some responses into one response for convenience. This becomes a bit necessary when considering that some of these posts are spread across different pages (ie some were in part 2, others in part 4, etc.). And because I don’t want the comments cluttered, so as it will be easy for others and newcomers to bring on their own comments, the others will be deleted some time after making this post (but not right away, I’ll give it a few days or a week or so).
So, with that introduction out of the way…
A discussion on Germany’s invasion of Poland, and the false flags and deaths leading up to it (response to part 1)
Dieter Schenk in “Hitlers Mann in Danzig” on the supposed massacres:
“The number of victims was stated differently in the literature and was probably between 1500 and 5800. The head of the Homicide Commission of the Reich Security Main Office, Dr Bernhard Wehner, quantified this number in a detailed testimony after the war (3479 dead were calculated by Gentzen on the basis of the grave and missing persons file). Wehner had been commissioned with the investigation in Bydgoszcz and first reported the number 5800 to the Foreign Office in mid-December 1939, which was responsible for preparing a German White Paper. Wehner reported: ‘A short time later I learned that Hitler had been very excited about this White Paper. On his order, the entire printed edition had to be stamped in February or March 1940.’ Hitler ordered that in the edition approved by him the number of victims be increased tenfold. Thus the number of 58,000 murder victims of the ‘Polish September murders’ was taken over by German propaganda. Internally, Wehner later corrected the total number downwards to 3500, after German police stations in former Polish territory worked ‘properly’ and recorded the missing cases.”
So yeah, a pretty much entirely invented atrocity.
The Anomalous Host
I think I’m going to enjoy the long-term ramifications of your response, if this goes on long enough. Even if I don’t, glad to see you actually have some solid topics/data for me to tackle.
Find it strange that this book “Hitler’s Mann in Danzig” (full title “Hitlers Mann in Danzig: Albert Forster and Nazi crimes in Danzig West Prussia”), by Dieter Schenk, isn’t more widely available, especially on Amazon, in English. I’m not saying that to bash the source of information, I just find it peculiar. Mainly because that usually indicates it’s a difficult book to reference. Looking it up made me come across this site, which seems to be either where you quoted, or it’s linked to where you quoted it from:
Which also linked me to some rather fascinating discussions on the topic (these links are optional, just in case you were interested in going in-depth with it):
Aside from the 3479 number, lower than what I thought was the original minimum of 5000 (rounded down), that doesn’t really change much of what I had been saying on the page. I even admit that it’s possible for Myles’ claim that the Germans multiplied the numbers for shock value to get more people supportive of the invasion of Poland. But at the same time, the quote doesn’t specify whether or not this number is about Bloody Sunday, the the incidents prior to the invasion. In any case, I also agree that it’s possible, if not the most likely scenario, that Hitler was looking for an excuse to invade Poland to take back territory lost to Germany from the Treaty of Versailles, and was willing to exaggerate the number of atrocities, and commit false flags, in order to do it. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that the Poles weren’t very keen on Germans in their country (or at least the part of the country annexed to them post-WWI), and that there was a history of bad blood between them that extends far beyond just WWI, and that there relations were something along the lines of Britain and Ireland during the 80s (see films like In the Name of the Father, or Hidden Agenda, for examples of the latter).
They didn’t like each others, and they killed each other in what can only be considered hate crimes. The scale of it differs depending on the source (and make no mistake, legitimate/truthful or otherwise, Dieter Schenk is not the only source of information for these numbers, and his conclusions/statements should be taken with a grain of salt, just as any other). And I have gone through several sources of information on different threads and novels that I can’t wrap my head around which numbers are to be believed. Personally, I don’t fully believe either side, the Germans or the Poles. I think the truth is somewhere in-between.
So when you say, “invented atrocity,” I’m not entirely sure what you mean or even how to take that. What defines an atrocity? You saying the number has to be higher than 3000 (just to round it down the lowest thousand)? At which point do the number of deaths go from non-atrocities to atrocities? And which part about it is “invented?” The whole thing, or just part of it? Because I don’t buy that it’s invented in the sense that Poles didn’t massacre a portion of the German population in Poland amidst all this, whether it’s pre or post German invasion into Poland. That’s like saying no reason existed outside of “Hitler wanting more territorial control of Europe” for Germany to invade Poland, when there were other reasons.
What I refer to as the “entirely invented atrocity” is the claim that the Poles slaughtered tens of thousands of Germans before the Nazi invasion occurred, as all available evidence shows it to be such. I don’t deny that interwar Poland discriminated against many of its ethnic minorities, or that there were massacres of ethnic german civilians after the September 1st.
As to Hitlers motivations, one the main motivations for him starting the war was explicitly stated by him secretly on multiple occasions like here: https://www.ns-archiv.de/krieg/1939/schmundt/23-05-1939-schmundt.php
“Danzig is not the issue. For us, it is about expanding the living space in the East and providing food, as well as solving the Baltic problem.” No “massacres” of ethnic germans figured in his actual reasons for invasion.
The Anomalous Host
You’re going to send me to a website that is entirely in German? I think you’re under the false impression that I myself speak and read German. If you’re able to do that, more power to you, but that doesn’t mean much to me. If you’re using something like Google Translate, that’s not a completely reliable method.
As for the “all available evidence shows it to be such” regarding Hitler invading Poland, that’s a damn big assumption. Sure, you have that quote Hitler made at a conference with his generals in May 23, 1939, about how the “Baltic problem” was more of an issue than Danzig (which he claims in the quote was a non-issue, but that could also entail it not being an issue compared to the Baltic problem).
The better question is what is the “Baltic problem.” That problem is the “Sovietization of the Batlics. Which brings up the other reason Hitler wanted Germany’s territory back from Poland. The Soviets were the ones planning on domination of Europe, and Hitler knew this. He also knew the Soviets had plans of taking over Germany, not just Poland, and France, and many other parts of Europe until they took it as a whole. Taking Poland would push Germany closer to the Soviets to stop them. Hitler convinced Stalin to make a peace agreement with him to stem the tide, while Russia would take one half of Poland, and Germany would take the other half. This is why, before the Soviets decided to mount an attack on Germany (which they were planning to do), Germany did a pre-emptive strike on the Soviets, and intended to drive them all the way back to the capital which Germany would conquer, and leave the Soviets in such a state of dissaray that they wouldn’t be able to muster up enough force for an effective counter-attack. Unfortunately for Germany, the plan failed, as the Russian winter decimated their forces, and gave Russia enough time to rally themselves and build up a force to push Germany back. And at that point, Germany was fighting a war on two fronts, between the Soviets, and the other Allies.
So yeah, Hitler anticipated all those countries going to war with him (though he was hoping the U.S. would stay out of it, as he didn’t anticipate the Japanese bringing them into the conflict), and wanted countermeasures in addition to reclaiming territory lost by the Treaty of Versailles, lest another repeat of Germany’s fate post-WWI would happen again where they suffered economically (among other ways). They failed, and were defeated, harshly. If nothing else, at least as far as what revisionists believe with a decent head on their shoulders, they damaged Soviet Russia badly enough to where they had to put their plans for an entire takeover of Europe on hold. But the Soviets did retain their hold on Poland, as well as East Germany.
So in that context, Danzig is a non-issue. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t an issue in other smaller contexts. Anyway, now you know what that line about the “Baltic problem” actually means. And why Hitler likely felt justified in having false flag operations and exaggerating the atrocities committed by the Poles.
Studies on cyanide remains, and whether they prove/disprove the gassing chambers and the holocaust (response to part 4)
Using youtube comments to debunk a scientific study is extremely convincing stuff. Well done.
Though seriously, can you actually refute the study by Markiewicz et al, or will you need to resort to youtube comments again? https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml
The Anomalous Host
Now I know you’re just a trolling asshole. You clearly didn’t read enough of the previous entries to note that I resorted to sources outside of YouTube to debunk the statements made in a YouTube video. And even if I didn’t, that shouldn’t matter. The source of the information is irrelevant if the information is accurate.
As for that link you put up, it’s been refuted to an extent in part 3 of this little series:
My primary sources have been listed in that blog entry. But just for convenience:
Note that the Leuchter Reports book isn’t written by Leuchter, but uses his findings as a base to expand from there with other researches and findings, and also noting and addressing the weaknesses and controversies of the initial reports.
If you want me to take you seriously, take a quote from the source you’re using and point out exactly what you want me to debunk. And also keep in mind this isn’t exactly a full-time thing for me. My preference is games and film (and philosophy). This is just a side-project by my standards.
See Tables I-IV in the Polish study where they find substantial cyanide residues in both the delousing, as well as in the remains of the homicidal gas chambers. It completely thrashes the claims by Leuchter which were based on his poor handling of samples.
TABLE III. Concentrations of Cyanide Ions in Samples Taken From the Crematorium Chambers (Or Their Ruins) in Which the Victims Were Gassed.
A – Sample No;
B – Concentration of CN- (µg/kg).
A 17 17 18 19 20 21 22
B 28 76 0 0 288 0 80
28 80 0 0 292 0 80
26 80 0 0 288 0 80
A 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
B 640 28 0 8 20 168 296
592 28 0 8 16 156 288
620 28 0 8 16 168 292
A 32 33 34 35 36 37 38
B 68 12 12 16 12 16 56
68 8 12 12 8 16 52
68 8 8 16 8 16 56
A 39 40 41 42 43
B 40 36 500 trace 16
44 32 496 0 12
44 36 496 0 12
A 46 47 48 49 50 51 52
B 244 36 92 12 116 56 0
248 28 96 12 120 60 0
232 32 96 12 116 60 0
Oh and I almost forgot, even another neo-nazi chemist, Frenz, tore Leuchters worthless “report” to shreds.
See page 32 http://web.archive.org/web/20120510073015/http://www.resist.com/libertybell/LB-199302.pdf
The Anomalous Host
“It completely thrashes the claims by Leuchter which were based on his poor handling of samples.”
Did you not read the fucking part in both the fucking blog post and in me previous fucking comment where I fucking said the fucking book fucking noted that Lauchter’s initial fucking findings were controversial at best and weak at worst?
I’ve already stated what that book is and what it is not, and it is not entirely based upon the Leuchter Reports. It goes by that name because those were the reports that sparked an interest in investigating the gas chambers. There are numerous other reports from other people with much stronger evidence supporting the case that the gas chambers either didn’t exist (ie weren’t used to kill people, and likely not even used as a gas chamber), or that they weren’t used to kill prisoners on a genocidal scale.
Don’t make another comment that would could only be replied by repeat this for a third fucking time, for the reading impaired. If you’re going to waste my fucking time, I’m going to delete your fucking comments.
And speaking of wasting time, I bet you have no idea what those fucking numbers from those tables even mean. You just linked and copy-pasted from some other site you Googled just thinking, “Oh, this looks intelligent enough to tear that douchebag denier’s statements apart, I’ll copy paste this link and then copy-paste this data. More work for him, less work for me, which means I can destroy this lame brain with ease without really even needing to think about it.”
There is something you didn’t take into account though, which proves definitively that you did not read the blog post in it’s entirety, if at all; either that or you have a bad case of short term memory loss. This study you link to, with all those fancy tables and numbers, was conducted by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala, and Jerzy Labedz at the Institute of Cracow (or Krakow). This study has been debunked. You know how I know it has been debunked? Because I quoted from a source that debunks this study. And not only did I quote from a source that debunks this study, but I quoted from a source that debunks this study ON THIS VERY FUCKING BLOG PAGE THAT YOU COMMENTED ON, BRINGING UP THIS DEBUNKED STUDY THAT I’VE ALREADY STATED HAS BEEN FUCKING DEBUNKED!
I mention in this blog post you’re commented on that chemist Germar Rudolf has debunked this fucking study you fucking cited!
You just have to go up a few paragraphs from the last paragraph of the original post to fucking see it!
I don’t have time for dumb fucking morons who themselves don’t have the time to read the very article they’re trying to debunk. That’s worse than not watching a movie that you’re writing a shitty review on.
Theres no “debunking” the fact that Markciwitz et al. found cyanide traces. You did not quote any actual “debunking” of their study by Rudolf, so i’d like to see the study that you mean before I comment further. Have you actually read their study that I linked? Because thats where the figures I copied come from.
The Anomalous Host
I read it more than you read my blog page, that’s for damn sure. Anyway, you want the actual link to the actual debunking report by Rudolf, because you don’t want to look it up yourself. That’s fine, I’m decent at carrying these debates like HBK carrying Hogan through a wrestling match. The red nosed reindeer created what is known as The Rudolf Report, which is more recently known as “The Chemistry of Auschwitz” in volume 2 of The Holocaust Handbooks series.
Short version: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n5p26_Zaverdinos.html
“In chapter 4, “Evaluation of the Chemical Analyses,” Rudolf relates how the samples he collected were analyzed by the prestigious Institut Fresenius in Taunusstein, Hessen, Germany, without the institute being informed of the origin of the samples.40
This chapter includes a comparison of the methods and results of the Institut Fresenius, Alpha Analytical Laboratories and the Jan Sehn Forensic Institute. Rudolf regards the analytical method of the Cracow institute as altogether unreliable, mainly because it excludes the possibility of detecting stable compounds of cyanide like Prussian Blue, which should account for the vast majority of compounds detectable today.41 Table 15 in Rudolf’s Report gives the precise place from where each sample was taken, the type of material it contains, the depth in the wall from which it originated, the iron concentration and, finally, the cyanide (CN-) content, measured in the standard ratio of milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg). Results from morgue No. 1 in Krema II, allegedly the chief killing location, show concentrations of 7.2 mg/kg or less, while the samples from the inner and outer walls of the delousing chambers show up to 13,500 mg/kg, quantities which are not merely larger but of different order. Rudolf also discusses the results of experiments in which he exposed building material to HCN under various laboratory conditions.
The fifth chapter contains Rudolf’s conclusions (cited below). In chapter six, “Critique of Counter Reports,” he responds to the 1945 and 1990 expert reports by the Jan Sehn Forensic Institute (Cracow),42 and also to the “anti-Leuchter” findings of French researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, German writer Werner Wegner,43 G. Wellers, Austrian chemist J. Bailer,44 Prof. G. Jagschitz,45 and historian Gerald Fleming.
Prussian Blue stains are formed on walls as follows: First the hydrocyanic acid (HCN) gas sticks to the walls, where it is adsorbed on the surface in a purely physical process. Later HCN combines with ferrous iron and, eventually, ferric iron in the building materials to form the permanent blue compound.46 Finally, the compound begins to “migrate” into and through the wall.47 The presence of moisture, as in the damp morgue-cellars of Birkenau Kremas II and III, hastens this chemical process, which may take a long time to complete.
This can be observed in Auschwitz-Birkenau buildings BW (Bauwerk) 5a and 5b, which had delousing or disinfestation chambers that used Zyklon B. The north-west interior wall of the delousing tract in building BW 5a shows intense blue coloring, and there are dark blue patches on the exterior walls of both these buildings, especially the wall of BW 5b which was exposed to wet westerly winds. This shows that Prussian Blue has “migrated” right through the brick. The claim that exposure to the elements would have “washed away” any cyanide compounds is thus shown to be false.48 On the contrary, as Rudolf explains, the wet Polish winds have encouraged the process of Prussian Blue formation in the walls of the disinfestation chambers (especially the west-facing outer-wall of the gas chamber in building BW 5b). If Birkenau’s alleged homicidal “gas chambers” — the damp morgue rooms in Kremas II and III — had been exposed to Zyklon/ HCN as claimed, Prussian Blue staining should have been similarly visible.
Rudolf cites the interesting case of a sample of building material taken from a farmhouse in the Bavarian countryside that showed a cyanide concentration of 9.6 mg/kg, which is of the same order as the 7.2 mg/kg found in the “gas chamber” of Krema II. This suggests that such low concentrations may well be a phenomenon of nature, or be below the practical detection level.49
Some revisionists have suggested that the morgue cellars (where homicidal gassings were allegedly carried out) may have been disinfected from time to time with HCN, thus accounting for these low levels of cyanide. This is possible,50 but pharmacist Pressac has plausibly pointed out that HCN would not normally be used as a disinfectant.51 As already noted, however, it appears that such low concentrations may have nothing to do with occasional exposure to Zyklon (HCN). In fact, though, we simply do not know if the morgues were disinfected with Zyklon B or not. If the figures for cyanide found in the Leichenkeller indeed have nothing to do with applications of Zyklon B, that would surely be more satisfactory than having to account for partial gassings there.”
You’re better off just going to those links yourself (the last one if you want to get closer to the section that actually addresses the Cracow Institute’s findings, as they’re not easy to format for a comment post like this.
The first thing that needs to be gotten out of the way is the fact that Rudolf himself admits that “chemistry is not a science with the power to prove or refute human gassings in Auschwitz »rigorously«”(http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Green.html)
Right, so in the “Evaluation of Chemical Analyses” I looked at Rudolf presents a table (Table 19) which shows that barracks in Birkenau, indeed just like in the Polish study, show lower or no cyanide residue at all contrary to the morgue/gas chamber of Krema 2. And these are Rudolfs own samples. The low number of samples, just 4 in total from Krema 2 is also remarkable, and so low in fact that it proves nothing about whether the facility was used as a gas chamber or not. No wonder Rudolf came said what he did in his response to Green.
The Anomalous Host
They also say:
“In 1989, the Jan Sehn Forensic Institute in Cracow, Poland, commissioned by the Auschwitz State Museum, took samples from the alleged gas chambers of Auschwitz and Birkenau, and conducted its own chemical tests, the results of which, in the eyes of many revisionists, appeared to confirm Leuchter’s findings, even though the Cracow Institute itself came to the opposite conclusion.”
In addition to criticisms that came by Rudolph towards the Cracow Institute’s findings in spite of that.
What’s your point?
My point is pretty much exactly same as that of Rudolf, that merely measuring cyanide concentrations does not tell singlehandedly whether a gas chamber was used for homicidal purposes or not.
Discussion on the Wannsee Conference documents, and how to define words (response to part 2)
I like how you cite a document which spells out that the vast majority of the Jews are to be worked to death and that those who survive that will also be killed, but then say “this doesn’t exactly sound like a plan for genocide to me.” You are extremely bad at this holocaust denial-thing.
The Anomalous Host
Was primarily focused on the whole gas chambers thing, rather than the mistreatment of a labor force in a forced labor camp, which was a common thing back then on an international level. From Japanese labor camps, to Russian labor camps (especially those), to Polish labor camps (prior to the Germans taking those over), to UK labor camps (of which they built the first known concentration camps in existence from what I understand), to the labor camps 9 million Germans died in post-WWII. I don’t recall anyone calling any of that a genocide.
Just putting people in labor camps is not the same as planning to “comb Europe” of approx. 11 million people, kill all of those deemed unfit for work (that is the reigning implication throughout the Wannsee report, that the Jews deemed unfit for work are already long dead before the last of those deemed fit for slave labor die) and then kill the remnant of the ones fir for work to “prevent a new Jewish revival”.
And your labor camps which supposedly killed 9 million germans post war are totally imaginary.
The Anomalous Host
Regarding the first paragraph, that’s speculation. I argued in the article that the Final Solution more likely referred to deporting the Jews rather than killing them on a massive scale. The point of preventing the Jewish revival was to have no Jews in Germany to cause another rise in Jews owning/controlling banks that could be used to finance an invasion of Germany, and/or a cultural/political change from within Germany, as had been done to Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution. You can claim all you want as to the intent of those words, but it would carry no more weight than mine without context to support the alleged meaning, of which I have provided (in both this page and in other “RE: Debunking Holocaust Denial” pages).
As for the second paragraph about 9 million Germans being killed post WWII being imaginary, the hell it is:
I am not speculating about anything, the protocol literally states that :”In the course of the practical implementation of the final solution, Europe is combed through from west to east.” (Im Zuge der praktischen Durchführung der Endlösung wird Europa vom Westen nach Osten durchgekämmt.) https://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/wannsee/wannsee-konferenz.php
The point of the “Final Solution of the Jewish Question” was that there would be no Jews alive IN ALL OF EUROPE. That is what the report explicitly states. You have no clue what you are talking about. The protocol is explicitly about implementing the eventual genocide of European Jews and you cant escape that, especially after quoting the very paragraph which shows that in this article.
The Anomalous Host
You are already on thin fucking ice with your demonstration that you’re not taking my statements seriously in part 4. You’re pushing it still. Go ahead, keep doing it. I’ll be here when it breaks, and I’ll clean it up.
First of all, you’re citing a German page again. I’d prefer something in English. Preferably without me taking you at your word for your translation, as I’m aware at how translations from German to English can pose some problems, as I am aware of the problems that arose from translating Mein Kampf to English in different editions (and one of the earlier editions is biased with the footnotes attempting to make it as one-sided of a translation as possible). I wouldn’t be surprised if similar issues could arise from this Wannsee conference.
Second, I’ve already stated that the report does not explicitly state what you are saying. You’re just tossing it aside and just stating, “Of course it does!” That’s not going to get us anywhere.
So I’ll try to keep it simple. You state that an article from the conference states, “Europe is combed through from west to east” to implement the Final Solution. That can be taken either way, either to gather up the Jews for execution, or to gather up the Jews for deportation. Either way, they get placed in concentration/labor camps before reaching their final destination, whatever/wherever that may be (and I stated in the blog about where those final destinations attempted to be, whether it be Madagascar or Palestine, or those other countries which rejected them, including the U.S. [to be fair, I didn’t mention that part, but it’s not difficult to look up stories of countries rejected Jewish imports from Germany just prior to, or during, WWII]). That’s a fair assumption to make, and you haven’t demonstrated how it can be “literally” or “explicitly” otherwise, especially without giving any context to back up your assertion as to the meaning of those Wannsee lines.
If you wan to convince me otherwise, you’ll have to point out the exact line, and show that it can be only taken in the way you claim. And just to save us some time, I’ll go through some lines right here and now (but keep in mind, these are translations, so some context could be lost due to translation from the original language). And to save time, link to the pdf I used:
“Under appropriate direction the Jews are to be utilized for work in the East in an expedient manner in the course of the final solution.”
The main thing this does explicitly and literally state is that the Jews are to be used for work, indicating labor camps. Unless it refers to the Jews that were actually fighting in the German army, but I think we both know that’s not the case.
It also states this must be done in an “expedient” manner. So they need to be rounded up for work quickly. Why? Because they need to be wiped out quickly? Get taken off the streets quickly (to boost morale or something)? Or to create materials for Germany quickly? Keep in mind this is for work “in the East.” In the Eastern front was Poland (where most of these concentration camps already are, already built not by the Germans, but by the Poles). And East of Poland? Soviet Russia. Considering this was 1942, soon after their offensive against the Soviets failed, and their military in a poor state, it would make sense they would need their military to be resupplied rapidly, and have improved/new/fixed roads. And they want to deliberately kill off their work force that they so desperately need when the tide of war is turning against them, when they need that work force now more than ever? That doesn’t make practical sense.
“In large (labor) columns, with the sexes separated, Jews capable of work will be moved into these areas as they build roads, during which a large proportion will no doubt drop out through natural reduction.”
Labor force organized, separated by sex, to build roads and such. The part that you take to explicitly/literally mean the Final Solution is all about genocide is the part that states “a large proportion will no doubt drop out through natural reduction.” Specifically, interpreting “drop out” as meaning dying. That’s a possibility I will grant you, and currently the one I agree with (as opposed to just being too exhausted or sick or injured to continue working, which is also a possibility, especially with typhus being a problem that was killing both Jews and non-Jews).
But what of “natural reduction?” “Reduction” obviously means less workers overtime, which I currently take to mean they die via some cause. But what is the “natural” cause? Are we to believe that firing squads and executions via Schindler’s List movie style are what they consider to be natural? Or is it more likely the disease and work injuries that are the more natural causes? I suppose overworking them (ie working them to death) is also a possibility, but that also wouldn’t make practical sense if the Germans are in dire need of a work force to help build Germany back up on an infrastructure and military supply level. Working them to death, deliberately, would cut down on their number of workers faster than they would like.
To suggest that the “natural” in “natural reduction” is anything other than disease or work accidents is sketchy.
“The remnant that eventually remains will require suitable treatment; because it will without doubt represent the most [physically] resistant part,”
“suitable treatment,” and a remnant that is “physically resistant.” Physically resistant indicates one capable of fighting back physically, resisting orders to move to one place, do another, causing a camp riot, etc. Suitable treatment, in your case, would indicate they should be executed. That is certainly a possibility. It is also possible, in my opinion, it refers to how they are treated when they come back from work, while they are still in the camps. How they are to be treated, suitably, while in the camps. Although the next part does carry a bit of worry in its tone, and is more supportive of your interpretation than anything preceding it.
“it consists of a natural selection that could, on its release, become the germcell of a new Jewish revival. (Witness the experience of history.)”
Natural selection being the naturally strong that survive (which supports my earlier position as to the interpretation of natural reduction). But the “germcell of a new Jewish revival” is the most telling part. And the “Witness the experience of history” is a callback to the Bolshevik revolution, the Jewish bankers (in particular the Rothchilds), and how they caused Germany’s poor state of affairs post-WWI (as a result of WWI). As in they didn’t want a Jewish revival to cause the same thing to happen again that would cause a repeat of history (hence the “experience of history” indicating they should learn from past mistakes of letting Jews get into such positions of power). There is worry in these lines, a caution that this outcome should be avoided.
The answer to this which you believe is the method they went with is to exterminate these “natural selection” Jews before they are released out of the camps. If it weren’t for the fact that there aren’t any real known “education camps,” I would suspect that the “suitable treatment” could refer to those rather than extermination.
And yet that answer comes with its own share of problems, which becomes obvious when considering the context surrounding this entry I pulled from the Wannsee Protocols. If they really did intend genocide, why wouldn’t they just say it? Why wouldn’t they just say eliminate, kill, murder, eradicate, buy a farm, for these labor workers?
The entire writing itself is focused not just on how to transport Jews, which Jews to transport and to where (depending on whether they are first or second generation Jew, or whether they are married to a non-Jew German, and/or have children, and/or are over the age of 60), but also how to emigrate Jews. Immigration restrictions are mentioned. I mean, it goes through a considerable amount of worry for deporting Jews in an organized manner out of Germany for something that non-revisionists claim is a document that is all about genocide. Especially when nothing is mentioned on how to actually do the genocide. Such as transporting Zyklon B, gas chamber supplies, bullets and supplies for camp guards on a regular basis, how to handle mass graves, etc. You know, standard stuff for carrying out murder on a massive scale. Seems more concerned with move Jews out of Germany than about killing Jews in Germany.
To pull out a few quotes demonstrating what I’m talking about:
“The Chief of the Security Police and the SD then gave a brief review of the struggle conducted up to now against this foe. The most important elements are:
a) Forcing the Jews out of the various areas of life (Lebensgebiete) of the German people,
b) Forcing the Jews out of the living space (Lebensraum) of the German people.”
Sounds bad right? Until you read the lines that follow:
“In pursuit of these aims, the accelerated emigration of the Jews from the area of the Reich, as the only possible provisional solution, was pressed forward and carried out according to plan.
On instructions by the Reich Marshal, a Reich Central Office for Jewish Emigration was set up in January 1939, and its direction entrusted to the Chief of the Security Police and the SD. Its tasks were, in particular:
a) To take all measures for the preparation of increased emigration of the Jews;
b) To direct the flow of emigration;
c) To speed up emigration in individual cases.
The aim of this task was to cleanse the German living space of Jews in a legal manner.”
Sounds heavily in support of my position. And it gets better:
“The disadvantages engendered by such forced pressing of emigration were clear to all the authorities. But in the absence of other possible solutions, they had to be accepted for the time being.”
Sounds to me like they’re not considering genocide as a “possible solution.” In fact, it seems to be absent from their list of possible solutions.
So when you say, “the report explicitly states […] [t]he protocol is explicitly about implementing the eventual genocide of European Jews and you cant escape that,” I say I can not only escape that, I say you don’t know what you’re talking about when you state that the protocol is “explicitly” about genocide. If you feel otherwise, then show me otherwise. Show me where I’ve gone wrong in my interpretations that I have laid out in the most explicit and literal manner possible.
Allright, you may actually be one of the most deceptive denier cretins I have ever responded to, either that or you are just extremely dense. You present the portions on the emigration of Jews as if they are the policy that the Nazis are pursuing at the time of the protocol, and then omit this line: “In the meantime, in view of the dangers of emigration in wartime, and
the possibilities in the East, the Reichsführer SS and Chief of the German
Police has forbidden the emigration of Jews.” (Inzwischen hat der Reichsführer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei im Hinblick auf die Gefahren einer Auswanderung im Kriege und im Hinblick auf die Möglichkeiten des Ostens die Auswanderung von Juden verboten) That refers to the ban on Jewish emigration that Himmler enacted on 23rd of October 1941. The portions you deceptively quote pertain to the measures Nazis sought against Jews PRIOR TO 1941.
So, the portions on emigration that you selectively quote have nothing whatsoever to do with the “Final solution” that the protocol proposes you fucking moron.
The rest of your post is pure desperate obfuscation and bullshitting. I can put the protocol in its proper context that becomes obvious from all other available evidence on the development of the Nazi “Final Solution” in this period, as can be seen in Hans Franks explicit secret speech to the officials of the Generalgovernment (Nazi-occupied Poland) : “Man hat uns in Berlin gesagt: weshalb macht man diese Scherereien; wir können im Ostland oder im Reichskommissariat auch nichts mit ihnen anfangen, liquidiert sie selber!” (We were told in Berlin: why have this trouble; we can’t do anything with them in the Ostland or in the Reichskommissariat, liquidate them yourselves!) https://www.ns-archiv.de/personen/frank/16-12-1941.php
“Diese 3,5 Millionen Juden können wir nicht erschießen, wir können sie nicht vergiften, werden aber doch Eingriffe vornehmen können, die irgendwie zu einem Vernichtungserfolg führen, und zwar im Zusammenhang mit den vom Reich her zu besprechenden großen Maßnahmen.”
(“We cannot shoot these 3.5 million Jews, we cannot poison them, but we will be able to intervene in a way that somehow leads to a successful extermination, in connection with the great measures to be discussed in the Reich.”)
Plus a document on the murder of German Jews via gassing from October 1941 https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/19411025-wetzel-no365/index.html
From Franks speech it is inescapably obvious that the Nazis were planning the extermination of Jews in Poland.
By the way, do you know what the Einsatzgruppen were? Do you know what they had been up to in Nazi-occupied areas of the Soviet Union since July 1941?
The Anomalous Host
In all fairness, it’s a bit of both. I’m both dense, and a bit on the deceptive and reckless side (don’t take “deceptive” the wrong way, we’re already having issues without how to take the meaning of words). That combination tends to work wonders for laying traps like the one you just fell into. Being dense makes my arguments thick. Being deceptive and reckless makes me prone to making an unintentional mistake for others to point out. And 9 times out of 10, when they call me out on it, they make a fatal mistake that makes my error look insignificant by comparison. Haven’t found a reason to stop using that method yet.
On the one hand, it’s true, I should’ve caught the line about how emigration was banned by the Reichsführer SS and Chief of the German Police, but I didn’t, and you were right to call me out on that and call me a fucking moron (and I’m a bit curious to see how much of a fucking moron I really am after this post).
On the other hand, it also supports my main point. They would like to emigrate them, but don’t. And why don’t they? One of the two reasons is because of “the dangers of emigration in wartime.” Why would they give a shit about the dangers posed to the Jews due to emigration if they would want them dead anyway? So they transport them to the East into labor camps instead, for the reasons I stated above.
So, Himmler declared the ban on emigration October 23, 1941 (though it should be noted it also states “Evacuation Aktionen will remain unaffected,” which I take to mean the transportation of Jews to labor camps, particularly since the Wannsee document states on page 9, “The start of the individual major evacuation Aktionen will depend largely on military developments.”), while the document for the Final Solution was first put up at the Wannsee Conference on January 20th, 1942, roughly 3 months later.
However, that line about emigration being banned is also followed with information about where the Jews are to be distributed. There was one place I find to be quite peculiar:
If that’s the same England as UK England, British England, then this is seemingly contradictory if emigration of the Jews is banned at this point. It got more confusing when it stated it was taking into account the existence of 11 million Jews, when there were less than 300,000 in Germany at this point.
Which makes me wonder, are the Germans actually tracking the number of Jews all around Europe? Because that seems to be the only logical explanation. Which makes me curious as to where these Jews were primarily located, because Germany certainly lacked that whole 6 million number. According to a source, Poland and USSR contained the bulk of the Jewish population, with Poland containing 3 million Jews, and USSR containing a bit less (at least prior to WWII):
And according to the Wannsee Protocol document, Hungary held 5 million Jews at the time it was written. This was notable because the document made special note of this population with this line on page 9:
“In order to settle the problem in Hungary, it will be necessary in the near future to impose an adviser for Jewish questions on the Hungarian Government.” In addition, “to send a specialist from the
Main Office for Race and Settlement to Hungary for general orientation” and “will temporarily
be designated officially as Assistant to the Police Attaché.”
It’s safe to say Germany didn’t hold all these countries that are listed. So this begs the question: if the Final Solution was about the extermination of the Jews, does that mean they intended to take over all the listed countries and exterminate the Jews there afterwards? I don’t get it. Even by traditional holocaust history, the Final Solution seemed to be all about eliminating the Jews within German controlled territory near the end of the war, at a time where they had no hope of taking some of those listed countries.
Also rather strange that there is an option to either be sterilized or “evacuated” for certain Jewish types within this context of genocide.
One other thing of note is a reason brought up for the Jews to be evacuated, on page 15:
“Jews must be removed as fast as possible from the Government-General, because it was there in particular that the Jew as carrier of epidemics spelled a great danger, and, at the same time, he caused constant disorder in the economic structure of the country by his continuous black-market dealings.”
Even with the emigration ban, it is still a strange document to read under the assumption that the Final Solution indicates genocide, especially when the ban on emigration seems to be a temporary status until wartime was over (or so they hoped).
Anyway, regarding the whole, “the portions on emigration that you selectively quote have nothing whatsoever to do with the “Final solution” that the protocol proposes you fucking moron,” that depends. Because this ban on emigration is indicated to be a temporary measure in the document, via the words: “In the meantime,” which is included in the quote you gave. As in, “In the meantime, until the safety issues are settled, there will be no more emigration.” And this safety issue is pointed out primarily because of the dangers of wartime. As in different measures will be taken once the war is over, and they resume deportation dealings such as the Haavara Transfer, and the Madagascar plan. In the meantime, forced labor.
What you call, “pure desperate obfuscation and bullshitting,” I call literal translation of the words being written (assuming the English translation is accurate). But, as you go on to say, it’s the context that matters. So you bring up the Hans Franks speech, from the infamous Hans Frank diary. You remember the past few times I bitched about you linking to sites that are only in German, and thus am at the mercy of your translation of them? This is one of those times where it really fucking matters. Especially when considering the word might not mean the same today as it was back then.
The “liquidate them yourselves” line doesn’t mean much here. That can easily be taken to mean, “remove,” which can refer to being transported away.
As for the next one that states, “successful extermination,” that’s the one where the translation is controversial. Mainly regarding the word Vernichtungserfolg, or more appropriately shortened to Vernichtung. There have been debates as to the actual meaning of this word, and in the context it was used, and even if the alleged diary of Hans Frank it was found in was legit, as there are no actual original copies of it around to verify.
“anti-revisionists frequently cite a speech made on 16 December 1941 (often misdated to 13 December 1941). In this speech, Frank used words which anti-revisionists argue mean “exterminate” and which revisionist argue refer to deportations (see Meanings and translations of German words and Holocaust revisionism). However, Frank also explicitly stated that “We cannot shoot 3.5 million Jews, we cannot poison them” and “I have initiated negotiations for the purpose of deporting them to the east.””
“Etymologically Vernichtung means “bringing to nothing”. English words/phrases such as nullify, annul, annihilate, and “bring to naught” have similar etymologies.”
In addition, if shooting the Jews isn’t an option, and if poisoning them isn’t an option (is Zyklon B not also considered a poison? Just how far off is poison from gas?), then what else would there be in that conversation?
And then you decide to bring in something that comes off as a tangent, but it is certainly a challenge (as is this whole comment you’ve made; you’ve finally met my expectations). The document of the Germans gassing Jews, allegedly using vans. This gets fascinating, not only because a revisionist named Samuel Crowell debunked this (page 88),
but Jamie McCarthy also debunked Crowell’s debunking.
And then Crowell responded again debunking the debunker’s debunking.
These are my favorite types of discussions to look over.
So first of all, I find the term “gas vans” hilarious, because I have a hard time believing those things not only existed, but were effective, give how cautious one must be of a stationary gas chamber, let alone a mobile one. And Cromwell notes:
“In contrast, there is no documentary reference to “Vergasungsapparate” either before or during the war which characterizes “Vergasungsapparate” as “gas vans.””
In other words, that German word referred to delousing chambers.
Last point, no, I was not aware of what the Einsatzgruppen are, let alone what they did. Though I question you logic of bringing them into this when the previous topics don’t seem to be settled yet, and it’s a questionable tactic as to whether this subject of the Einsatzgruppen, or even the Wetzel-Lohse letter referring to “gassing devices,” is going to resolve those topics any faster, especially when you seem to be getting rather irritated at my denseness. If it’s an attempt to overwhelm me with data, good luck.
Admittedly I feel slightly silly, because I omitted this part of the Wannsee protocol that kills all of your squirming about the protocols meaning: “III. Anstelle der Auswanderung ist nunmehr als weitere Lösungsmöglichkeit nach entsprechender vorheriger Genehmigung durch den Führer die Evakuierung der Juden nach dem Osten getreten.” (“III Instead of emigration, the evacuation of the Jews to the East has now taken the place of emigration as a further possible solution, with the corresponding prior permission of the Führer.”) “Emigration” has been replaced by the genocidal “evacuation” of the Jews. Does not get clearer than that. And with the exact request by Bühler on the “removal” of Jews from the Generalgovernment the meaning only gets clearer.
And you could try a bit harder next time to not prove me right about you being a blatantly deceptive cretin. Like, when you say that “liquidate” means Jews in the Generalgovernment will be “transported away” when Frank says that Berlin LITERALLY TOLD HIM THAT JEWS CANT BE TRANSPORTED TO THE EAST AND THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION SHOULD SEEK TO KILL THEM THEMSELVES AND WHEN FRANK EXPLICITLY REFERS TO EXTERMINATION AND THAT THERE ARE NEGOTIATIONS ON THE MEASURES ON EXTERMINATION IN BERLIN????? HOW THE FUCK do you expect your bullshit to fly when I quote the full excerpt of what Frank said??????
And you dodge of the content of Wetzels letter is also hilarious.
Its also immensely hilarious to me that you think that the Nazis banned Jewish emigration because they were afraid for their wellbeing, when the obvious reason they refer to a “danger” is their assumption that Jews who emigrate would pass on information to their enemies. Also hilarious is the fact that you apparently also thought that the table in the protocol showing the Jewish population distribution in Europe was meant to show where the nazis would emigrate them.
The Anomalous Host
Admittedly I feel slightly silly, because I omitted this part of the Wannsee protocol that kills all of your squirming about the protocols meaning: […] “Instead of emigration, the evacuation of the Jews to the East has now taken the place of emigration as a further possible solution, with the corresponding prior permission of the Führer.”) “Emigration” has been replaced by the genocidal “evacuation” of the Jews. Does not get clearer than that.
Christ in a gas van! You’re right! I’ve been wrong this entire time! That does kill all of my “squirming” about the protocols meaning! Changing “emigration” to “evacuation” which can only mean “genocide” like a mother getting an abortion doctor to evacuate the baby from her womb, that proves everything! Words like “drop out” didn’t do it, words like “natural reduction” didn’t do it, “suitable treatment” didn’t do it. I made arguments regarding how those weren’t as explicitly/literally clear as you gave them credit for. But “evacuation,” oh, you got me beat there. There’s no other way to interpret that other than “genocide, kill ’em all, give ’em a whiff of the gas, bodies and fire, muahahahah!” You can look that up in the dictionary right now and find that very definition from merriam-webster.com:
1 : to remove the contents of : EMPTY
2 : to discharge from the body as waste : VOID
3 : to remove something (such as gas or water) from especially by pumping
4a : to remove especially from a military zone or dangerous area
b : to withdraw from military occupation of
c : VACATE sense 1
were ordered to evacuate the building
1 : to withdraw from a place in an organized way especially for protection
2 : to pass urine or feces from the body
I can literally and explicitly see how there’s no other way to view that word other than genocide. Just as I can see it wouldn’t have mattered if I did address the whole “liquidate” meaning, which also can only mean “genocide!” You know, like shown on that same website I used for the “extermination” mistranslation:
Nevermind the other arguments made about there being no original copy of Hans Frank’s diary containing those words. That obviously doesn’t matter anymore in the context of you demonstrating the proper use of the word “evacuate.” Same way on how you’ve clearly demonstrated that the nuclear Wetzel’s letter was completely dodged by me, and not addressed directly at all, in any way that would refute that one sentence with a link.
As for that whole mention of Jewish emigration and the reason for its ban that I gave, I guess that doesn’t matter now since my whole argument fell apart because of the meaning of one word (a meaning that can only be taken one way). I was thinking more along the lines of danger to the transportation device itself, and those who operate it (and possibly those it is transporting if we are to consider the possibility of the revisionist’s point of view, which we’re no longer not due to me getting owned), rather than the danger of Jews passing on information about the Nazi’s plans. You know, like when all that other emigration was going on prior to October 1941. But no matter.
And as to you laughing at (yet wrong interpretation of) my alleged take-away of the German’s tracking the numbers of Jews all around Europe. Obviously I wasn’t indicating that this meant they were tracking the best locations to emigrate the Jews to. Sorry that wasn’t as explicit as the word “evacuate.” I raised several questions hoping you would give an explicit answer as to how to interpret all that. But given your response, it seems there’s only one other possibility. That the Germans planned on taking over all those countries and carrying out the “evacuation” of the Jews there. Something that was obviously and easily achievable given their position in 1942. Good to know.
Welp, since you’ve shown me the error of my ways, and shown that I am in fact a dense deceptive fucking moron, who was so dense/deceptive/moronic as not to see that “evacuate” meant “genocide,” and since that kills the entirety of my argument in spite of any other points that have been made; I see no reason to continue it. My hats off to you sir, for the knowledge you’ve provided, along with the laughs. In fact, the ownage I felt was so great, I’ll be sure to enshrine this in a part 6 of this Holocaust series.
So now if you’ll excuse me, I need to do a genocide on the shitter.
PS: Decent page that sums up reasons for the artificial creation of the Holocaust: