So I didn’t plan on making any sort of blog post like this. I saw some of what happened in Charlottesville, viewing some news bits here and there, sighing at the inevitability of all this, that violence was bound to strike with all these insane protests and demonstrations that have been going on, that fanatics and radicals from all sides are coming out of the woodwork, and were inevitably bound to clash (no thanks to the police and the mayor/governor). I wasn’t going to talk about it. But so many are making so much noise about it on the social media sites I hang out on, that it’s become an unavoidable subject. It’s not something I wanted to get into, but got into it I did.

“The whole thing could’ve been avoided.  What brought this whole thing on was that they were going to remove the statue.  […]  If they didn’t move it, then there wouldn’t have been some Unite The Right march, what the fuck?  But also I have an issue with removing stuff like this because it kinda sanitizes history.  […]  Having them exist is an opportunity for conversation.” — Cory Carr

“As an angry white man, they make me look bad.” — Cory Carr

“I really think that on both the Right and on the Left, our sensibilities and leanings are becoming more authoritarian.” — Forest Taylor

“If people would just sit the fuck down, and talk about things…” — Cory Carr

It all started with that review I made of the documentary 13th. I initially reviewed this film at the behest of someone I got into another heated discussion with over the film Do the Right Thing. jeremyfizzy of Letterboxd. So I watched the film, commented on how biased it is, and let jeremyfizzy become aware of its existence by commenting on his own review of 13th, which is short enough to include here in its entirety:

Bravo, DuVernay. Bravo.

I held off watching this for a while because I knew it would infuriate me. And it did, of course. But I can’t get too much more pissed off about life anymore (I hope) and this is essential viewing. How long until high school teachers show this in class rather than giving a lecture?

Anyways, it’s July 4th – be patriotic and punch a Trump supporter!

Well, as someone who voted for Trump, I kinda felt obligated to take a jab at this comment. Boy did I pick the wrong day to do that. Honestly, maybe I should’ve read the news to figure out what was going on that day before I made this comment:

“be patriotic and punch a Trump supporter!”

Well now. Here I am, as a Trump supporter, and a film critic, to state that I have taken your advice and watched this film 13th. And made a review. And make a strong case for why high school teachers shouldn’t show this in class.

theanomaloushost.org/2017/07/18/13th-review/

You said to give it a look. I say be careful what you wish for. We can punch back.

To which he responded:

you guys sure can, as shown in the white supremacist rallies today which resulted in numerous deaths. but good for you for supporting that

Well fuck, here we go. I wanted to keep it focused on the film, but due to recent events, that’s just not how jeremyfizzy wanted to do things. But in all honesty, I doubt he would’ve kept it civil and to the point anyway, even if this event didn’t happen. So now I’m put in this position where, for some reason, it’s necessary to point out that not all Trump supporters (in all likelihood, this is probably just a small fraction, just like how there’s a small fraction of anti-Trump supporters who are likely as fanatical as these white supremacist assholes whom they are no better than) are like these neo nazi Confederate flag waving idiots.

There are two ‘Alt-Rights’.

One is more accurately described as the New Right. These people like to wear MAGA hats, create memes, and have fun.
They include whites, blacks, Asians, latinos, gays, and everyone else. These are the people who helped Trump win the election.

The other faction likes to fester in dark corners of sub-reddits and obsess about Jews, racial superiority and Adolf Hitler.

This is a tiny fringe minority. They had no impact on the election.

Guess which faction the media is giving all the attention to?
— Paul Joseph Watson

*sigh*

Typical. I try to keep it focused on the film while taking a light jab at what I assumed was a light jab at Trump supporters, you double down on the tangent. I was interested in hearing your response about my thoughts on the film, where I went wrong, what I said right, if you learned anything or found the review amusing or found it to be hogwash, any of that bullshit.

I didn’t ask to be dragged into an argument about being a Trump supporter. But I can see you really want to get that off your chest. So I’m giving you a chance to go all out on that. You up for a debate? You up for an argument? Because if so, I’ll gladly set one up on my site, where we can go toe-to-toe, exchange back and forths, make it go on for as long as we can take it, until we tire of it, agree to disagree, or one of us concedes. And I would prefer it being done that way, otherwise, well, we’d be filling the comments section of this review on a topic that has little to nothing to do with the movie.

And for the record, I do not condone that violence. And you associating me and Trump supporters in general with radicals like that is an insult. That’s like saying all cops are racist pricks, or all blacks are thugs who loot and pillage, or all Germans are Nazis. Although it is a funny thing. Ironically enough, this can be associated with black riots to some extent. How the violence and riots became abundant because police and white were cracking down on blacks unjustly pre-90s, continually putting them down, until they couldn’t take it anymore, so they fought back be rioting, looting, pillaging, killing. And as people like you say, who could blame them? A violent backlash was bound to happen. And you fail to see the same thing happening today, only it’s not with violence against blacks, but against Trump supporters. All the attacks from ANTIFA and other entities being made against them, getting hit with bike locks, pepper sprayed, harassed, by both civilians and Hollywood celebrities and various politicians. A violent backlash was bound to happen.

I don’t want violence to happen, at all. I don’t like seeing violence encouraged by any side. I don’t want to see an inevitable backlash from people who claim to be on my side of the fence, yet are more radical than I’ll ever be. No more than you may want to see radical people on your side of the fence attack/harm/kill others because they disagree with them. But then again, I don’t know. Here you are encouraging others to punch Trump supporters. It needs to stop before it gets worse, before we get a civil war, before we get a finale of Do the Right Thing situation.

Now with that out of the way, do you want to talk about the movie 13th? Or do you want to dig down and get into a war of tangents?

You know, Letterboxd being a social media site strictly for film and such, I thought we would keep it focused on that movie, attempting to return focus to it. Then surprise, butt sex!

Anyway trump supporters are demons and everything they say is exhausting to read

That comment came after mine, and it’s not from the guy I was having a conversation with. Instead, a gay (Canadian?) fellow named Steven enters into the conversation. Naturally, since I don’t have much self-control when it comes to feeling the need to defend myself and my position, I couldn’t resist responding (I had a feeling it was all futile, but I had to try).

@Steven

Same can be said for anti-Trump supporters. Generalizing sucks. “Trump supporters are demons” That’s a lie and doing nothing to discourage stuff like this from happening.

“Racism springs from the lie that certain human beings are less than fully human. It’s a self-centered falsehood that corrupts our minds into believing we are right to treat others as we would not want to be treated.” — Alveda King

The point I was trying to make here is that it’s wrong to generalize, that it’s just as wrong to equate me (or all Trump supporters for that matter) with people like those protestors in Charlottesville, just like how it would be wrong for me to equate all Democrats with ANTIFA. It’s a form of racism. It’s best to treat individuals as, well, individuals, who have their own personal set of beliefs, and taking on those personal beliefs directly to see the logic (and faults) within them. I wanted this individual to state why he believes what he believes, hoping he would do the same and I would state mine, and try to see if one of us can set the other on the right path, the right line of thinking. Converting peacefully through meaningful dialogue. Just didn’t turn out that well. So Steven replied:

Sorry d00d nothing you’ve said in this comment thread has dissuaded me from my belief that you are a demon like the rest of them

You willingly backed someone who has been openly racist, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, and if I recall correctly, was on trial for raping a twelve year old at the time of the election

Anyone who supports him is evil, there’s really no getting around that, and you all can choke

“you all can choke.” Have to admit, that kinda hurt. jeremyfizzy gets in on this to make it a half-assed gang-bang operation.

thank you Steven 🤜🤛

hearing/reading people defend Trump/right wing shit has gotten really old (it was old even before the election). so respectfully, no, i don’t want to have a debate on any of it. if this was November 2016, i’d say yea.
i read most of your review but it seemed to be more about your personal beliefs than the film itself, so i can’t reasonably argue that. i can’t change your mind on these things, you’ve proven that thoroughly. it seems like you went into the film looking to wrestle with it – and refusing to lose.

Goddamn was this frustrating! All the emotions I started to feel then (which I guess I should thank them for because there are times when I think I’m emotionally dead inside). How I wanted to scream at Steven for the hypocrisy he was showing. How Steven’s comment following mine so perfectly illustrated the very racism that the Alveda King quote warned against. How he was acting just as badly as those white supremacist cocksuckers he explicitly shows his hatred for. How jeremyfizzy is such an idiotic bag of shit that he doesn’t even realize that his review was more about his personal beliefs than mine was, that his personal beliefs are making him not look at facts that go against those very beliefs. That they are both stubborn fucking idiots.

Obviously if I had made that my next comment, it wasn’t going to help things. So I thought I’d give one last decent shot at this, even though I expected it to be futile:

@jeremyfizzy

hearing/reading people defend Trump/right wing shit has gotten really old (it was old even before the election). so respectfully, no, i don’t want to have a debate on any of it. if this was November 2016, i’d say yea.

It also gets old hearing people bash on Trump for stuff he didn’t exactly do because they only listen to mainstream news and are unaware of what is false. But I still see-hear it anyway, as do you (and your friend). I would at least like to be on “agree to disagree” terms if that is to be the case.

i read most of your review but it seemed to be more about your personal beliefs than the film itself, so i can’t reasonably argue that.

But that’s the thing. The movie is the same way. The film is largely only pushing a personal opinion, and taking the statistics out of context. Such as by stating that violent crime rose during the 60s (which it did) exclusively because of systematic racism (which isn’t entirely true, there were other contributing factors). Plus the film never mentions that violent crime overall went down considerably during the 90s, which goes against the message that racism contributes to the violent crime rate and has stayed consistent up to the present. Plus the links I gave in the review that blacks contribute more towards the violent crime rate than whites do (that’s stating a fact, that’s not being racist), something else the documentary doesn’t mention.

None of those are personal beliefs. Those are facts that I bring up in my review, showcasing the bias in this documentary. And I didn’t disagree with everything the documentary brought up.

i can’t change your mind on these things, you’ve proven that thoroughly. it seems like you went into the film looking to wrestle with it – and refusing to lose.

Sure you can. It’s simple to change my mind. I even laid out hints in the review as to how you can. All you have to do is show me statistics the demonstrate that my points are wrong. For instance, show that blacks (on average) who are not repeat offenders suffer longer prison terms than whites (on average) who are also not repeat offenders. Show that this is the case in the present, or at least as far back as 2010. Do that, and you’ll see me change my mind.

Or better yet, show that this video is false (not necessarily the entire thing, just some of the statistical aspects of it):

Do either of those, and I’ll change my mind on them.

No response from jeremyfizzy on that, so far. Responded to Steven next.

@Steven
Sorry d00d nothing you’ve said in this comment thread has dissuaded me from my belief that you are a demon like the rest of them

Time for a change of tactics then.

You willingly backed someone who has been openly racist,
Is that why he has black supporters, such as Larry Elder and this kid?:

xenophobic,
In what way that isn’t considered reasonable?

homophobic,
When? Keep in mind he has gay supporters too, like Milo, and that guy normally hates Republicans.

misogynistic,
Ah yeah, this one. The main thing supporting this one is the whole, “Grab ’em by the pussy,” remark. Well I’m not going to lie, he’s not exactly a saint when it comes to that sort of thing. But, for someone who’s a misogynist, he doesn’t seem to have a problem getting women put into high political positions.

and if I recall correctly, was on trial for raping a twelve year old at the time of the election

I’m familiar with this. This is opinionated on both sides. Yes, there was a female who claimed to have been raped by Trump and some other rich guy back in the 90s, I think, and has had 2 or 3 lawsuits filed at separate times. One of them was tossed out because the initial lawsuit wasn’t properly filed in some way. But regarding the last lawsuit, she decided to bow out and drop the charges. And as far as I know, the only real evidence for this is her say-so. She might’ve been raped by Trump, she might not have been. There isn’t really anything conclusive about the case that can persuade people on one side or the other about this. There’s nothing solid about it. If you can say Trump is guilty with that, you can say he’s guilty with just about anything.

But in any case, he was never on trial, the case never got as far as a trial.

Now, let’s see what points you’ll bring up that justify this hatred that aren’t build on misinformation. Or if both of you will cut me off by discontinuing the conversation and/or blocking me.

Anyone who supports him is evil, there’s really no getting around that, and you all can choke

Now that, sir, is prejudice.

It’s usually here that anyone who gives a damn about the discussion would address each of those points one by one, providing an example as to why they believe Trump has those traits (such as by showing Trump being a racist, misogynist, etc.). Not quite, but then again, it becomes clear now he never gave a damn:

“He has black supporters, how can he be racist?” Nonsense

“Milo likes him, how can he be homophobic?” Even worse, Milo is a monster.

The women he puts into high positions are ones that share his toxic views about women and minorities. I wouldn’t exactly hold him up too high for that lmao.

Given everything we’ve seen or heard about Trump, how he views women and talks about women, I feel pretty justified in believing someone who claims she’s been raped by him. He’s a monster. And so are you.

“Now that, sir, is prejudice.”

Sure is, and I’m proud to be prejudiced against people who would put their support behind someone like Trump and defend or excuse the monstrous things he says and does. Even if you aren’t a bigot yourself (which I find…hard to believe), you knowingly helped put one in power. His VP wants to bring back conversion therapy for LGBT kids. I am gay. Conversion therapy kills lgbt youth. You side with someone who aims to eradicate people like me.

So yeah, I’m prejudiced against people like you.

You’re blocked. Bye

Didn’t matter how civil I tried to be at that point. So I ended it with this response that he’s never going to read:

You’re blocked. Bye

Oh good. Then you won’t get the last say.

“He has black supporters, how can he be racist?” Nonsense

How so? Oh wait, you won’t give a reason.

“Milo likes him, how can he be homophobic?” Even worse, Milo is a monster.

How so? At the very least he’s not prejudiced like you. And I never said he was the only homo to support Trump.

The women he puts into high positions are ones that share his toxic views about women and minorities. I wouldn’t exactly hold him up too high for that lmao.

Example?

“Now that, sir, is prejudice.”

Sure is, and I’m proud to be prejudiced against people who would put their support behind someone like Trump and defend or excuse the monstrous things he says and does. Even if you aren’t a bigot yourself (which I find…hard to believe), you knowingly helped put one in power. His VP wants to bring back conversion therapy for LGBT kids. I am gay. Conversion therapy kills lgbt youth. You side with someone who aims to eradicate people like me.

So yeah, I’m prejudiced against people like you.

Well then. So far you haven’t demonstrated in any clear way how Trump is a monster. You haven’t mentioned 1 thing he’s done that you consider monstrous and why it should be considered monstrous. At least not until now, mentioning his VP. I’ll agree, I’m not the biggest fan of Mike Pence either. I’m also not that big of a fan of conversion therapy. One of the things I dislike about Trump’s picks and policies (though I believe Trump only picked Pence because of pressure and lack of any decent choices to allow him Republican backing). I also dislike his policies on Net Neutrality and marijuana. I also lean slightly more on the pro-choice side rather than the pro-life side (though I can be persuaded either way at this point).

There are several things I dislike about Trump. But there were also many other things I disliked about the alternative for the election, which I found to be even worse than all this. If there was a better choice, I would’ve gone for it. If there were no pros, I wouldn’t have voted. There are other things being done that are monstrous on your side of the aisle, monstrous to people like me (and to those are not me).

I have had friends of mine lose friends and family to policies backed and supported by Democrats and those who believe in a forced coexistence (forcing coexistence is like forcing someone to have sex with you, it’s not ethical or pleasant unless it happens naturally and willingly with all parties involved). Releasing prisoners early (because they’ve supposedly been unjustly imprisoned), allowing illegal immigrants to run around freely, those people killed people I’ll never be able to talk with again, never be able to play board games with again, or anything else. I have good fucking reasons to support Trump over those who would not only allow this to happen, but give more concern towards the criminals than towards those they harm.

“Eradicate” people like you? Don’t make me laugh. If those conversion centers are really that bad, you have my sympathies, and I would vote against them if given the chance (so long as doing so doesn’t negatively affect my way of life, such as by voting in someone who will get rid of the centers, but who will also allow more criminals to do harm to my friends and family). And if those conversion therapies were really that bad, if they were doing that much harm to people, I’m pretty sure the media would jump all over that, attack Pence for it, and attack Trump in the process. And it would be happening now, or at least within the past couple months.

You don’t know me well enough to judge me, you ignorant prick.

In case you’re wondering about what incident I’m referring to that caused me to lose some friends I talked with played board games with, the only hint I’ll give is that it happened late 2015.

[The above video basically shows how the police forced the white supremacists into a confrontation with ANTIFA and anti-Trump protestors; I don’t agree with racism and much of what white supremacists stand for, and I do believe the group should’ve just dispersed and filed a lawsuit later about right to assembly, but this was really fucked up.]

9/19/2017 Edit: Aha! They deleted the video! I was prepared for that. I downloaded it the moment I saw it, so now I’ll re-upload it to this site:

Anyway, so I thought that would be the last that I would hear of Charlottesville on that site, with the friends I keep around. But it turns out I’m not the only person on that site who tried to get into a discussion about the whole thing, trying to inject themselves into a conversation and trying to be reasonable about it, trying to show them the error of their ways, and wouldn’t mind them trying to do the same. You know, a reasonable discussion. He fared no better than I.

But first, let me bring up the post that got a fellow film-watcher involved in the discussion:

An Open Letter To White America After The Events Of Charlottesville

Dear White America:

Today does indeed represent a turning point in American History. You can decide to cling to a pathetic, fragile dying ideology of assumed superiority which has no conceptual basis other than to pretend to ensure the survival of something that doesn’t exist and has never existed, or you can decide to abandon passivity, anxiety masquerading as comfort, comfort masquerading as anxiety, all your fear and hatred in order to join with the rest of the world in the common task of how to live together, to celebrate differences, to learn and grow beyond what we thought we were. White Ideologues are right to be afraid of their own obsolescence. They are right to be afraid that the world is passing them by and won’t miss them when they are gone. Their cherished ideals of a fictional White Civilization mean nothing to anyone but them and all it means to them is a desperate effort at convincing themselves they have greater inherent worth than they do. These ideals are built on a complex of lies that have always been known to be lies uttered to justify the evils of slavery, of genocide, of apartheid, of holy war, of rape and murder and suppression of others. White Civilization is this flea-bitten grab-bag of pseudoscience, debased scripture and decontextualized statements from your failed leaders: a centuries-long incoherent muttering propped up by mob violence, wars of choice, extractionist necronomies and the propaganda that leaks from them like old motor oil. You can stand with this if you want. It won’t matter though. You aren’t being replaced, you are fading away, and no one will ever need to replace you. Your sense of superiority has nothing to do with historical, cultural or biological reality. If you choose to give it up, to let go of your superiority, you will find beautiful things within yourself and others that you never knew were there. If you let go of your blindness and willful ignorance and decide to learn and to grow as a person, you will be rewarded tenthousandfold. Rather than fighting to secure a homeland for White America, you could could be ensuring the possibility of a future for whatever children will come to live on that land you were convinced was yours, a peaceful, kind, loving home with enough food and water and shelter, free of unnecessary illness and poverty, a home made of diverse biomes, full of nonhuman species to live with, with a rich cultural legacy composed of what all humans have made. This is a real option. This can be the future that we choose as much as we are capable of choosing anything. These children are ours, all of ours. Whatever future comes is ours as well. We can work together to make a better place than the one we have always known. America was never White. America was never Great. America was never Male. America was never Cishet. America was never Christian. The glorious past that you want to restore never was. It cannot be anyone’s future.

In Love, Hope & Charity,

nathaxnne

So here’s how I would’ve responded to this if I were going to:

Well, here we are. A controversial post with a controversial film over an event that really shouldn’t be all that controversial when you think about it. Time to get in on this.

Today does indeed represent a turning point in American History. You can decide to cling to a pathetic, fragile dying ideology of assumed superiority which has no conceptual basis other than to pretend to ensure the survival of something that doesn’t exist and has never existed, or you can decide to abandon passivity, anxiety masquerading as comfort, comfort masquerading as anxiety, all your fear and hatred in order to join with the rest of the world in the common task of how to live together, to celebrate differences, to learn and grow beyond what we thought we were.

You know, I can’t really tell which side of the spectrum they’re talking about here. It can just as easily describe the SJW #blacklivesmatter pro-feminism side just as easily as it can the white supremacist side. I would love to hear you mention, specifically, what makes them different.

These ideals are built on a complex of lies that have always been known to be lies uttered to justify the evils of slavery, of genocide, of apartheid, of holy war, of rape and murder and suppression of others. White Civilization is this flea-bitten grab-bag of pseudoscience, debased scripture and decontextualized statements from your failed leaders: a centuries-long incoherent muttering propped up by mob violence, wars of choice, extractionist necronomies and the propaganda that leaks from them like old motor oil.

Is that also why White Civilization, as you call it, went to war over one another to eradicate slavery (and succeed over the long-term)? Is that why we fought the Germans during WWII? Is that why whites and blacks fought side-by-side against systematic racism from that time up through the 60s and into the early 90s? What is your definition for White Civilization exactly, and how many members are there in it? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? More? Less?

If you choose to give it up, to let go of your superiority, you will find beautiful things within yourself and others that you never knew were there. If you let go of your blindness and willful ignorance and decide to learn and to grow as a person, you will be rewarded tenthousandfold. Rather than fighting to secure a homeland for White America, you could could be ensuring the possibility of a future for whatever children will come to live on that land you were convinced was yours, a peaceful, kind, loving home with enough food and water and shelter, free of unnecessary illness and poverty, a home made of diverse biomes,

That doesn’t sound so bad. Good thing I view America as a homeland for anyone who is willing to put forth the effort for citizenship and supports freedom of speech, and is willing to let others live the way they want so long as it isn’t harming anyone. That applies to everyone, whites and non-whites.

full of nonhuman species to live with, with a rich cultural legacy composed of what all humans have made.

Whoah. Going into science fiction are we?

This can be the future that we choose as much as we are capable of choosing anything. These children are ours, all of ours. Whatever future comes is ours as well. We can work together to make a better place than the one we have always known.

As nice as this sounds, I should ask what exactly you consider to be a “better place.” What is the ideal place? What is it about it that makes it ideal?

America was never White. America was never Great. America was never Male. America was never Cishet. America was never Christian. The glorious past that you want to restore never was. It cannot be anyone’s future.

I disagree (about it never being great or glorious). Aside from the LA riots, things seemed to be going pretty well from a racial and coexistence standpoint from the 90s to about 2012, give or take a couple years. Assuming America was never White (despite that it wasn’t officially an established country until Whites settled in it), or Great (is that why so many immigrants wanted to come hear over the past several decades?), or Male (like the founding fathers), Cishet (um, what?), or Christain (Oh really? Because I figured the whole reason America got started was to practice Christianity and religious freedom outside of Britain); assuming all that was true, if we are to work together, doesn’t that also mean working with whites and males and cishets and Christains, among the other groups that are out there?

As for the whole coexistence “we must all live together in peace” message your pushing, which I hope is what you’re pushing. It’s nice, and a good goal to have. But you have to keep in mind that coexistence is a lot like sex. It can be great fun and pure bliss. But it can also go horribly wrong if it is forced. Then it becomes a lot like rape. Don’t force it, don’t force people to accept it. It won’t work. Let it happen naturally.

And most importantly, don’t always listen to the bullshit news media feeds you. They thrive on controversy and anger, and tend to only focus on stories that generate both, even if it means taking things out of context and skewering/ignoring statistics that contradict their stories.

The way to achieve this societal paradise? View everyone not as a collective (all whites, all blacks, all asians, males, females, trannies, etc), but as individuals. Individuals who have their own likes/dislikes, their own passions/dreams, their own life experiences. Listen to what they have to say, encourage them to do the same for you, have a conversation to try and resolve differences. Otherwise it’s just going to turn into a Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice scenario, where the conflict arises from lack of communication (and turns into a scenario that’s just as bad as that movie).

So that’s how I would’ve responded. And that’s how I did respond. A few other petty people added me to their “Block” list. A few others actually said something that got me to respond.

• Kokko

  >Comparing feminists to nazis

  I stopped reading there lol

Me:

Anyway, so I gave an invitation to the original poster of the thread.  An invitation to discuss and debate the topic.

• nathaxnne walker

  if you have read my above comments, you will have read that I was not writing this for purposes of debate or argument. You had the space to offer counterpoint, which you did and which I read. If I was going to respond to them I would have done so already.

That was his response, and it’s worth pointing out other exchanges he had prior to my response.

• Good Fella

  There were, at most, 500 Nazi/white nationalists marching. Those people are the least of this country’s worries.

• nathaxnne walker

  Good Fella – I don’t think that we can look at White Nationalist/White Supremacist/’Western Chauvinist’ groups separately from the larger context in which they are now operating.

  I have lived through several waves of White Terror groups amassing strength/force in the United States, when they have espoused rhetoric in favor of certain administrations and against others, but we have never been in a situation such as this where openly neo-nazi rhetoric and recruiting strategies are all over the internet, new groups are forming every day and networking with each other (hence “Unite The Right”) in a way they haven’t in the past at the same time that a US Administration was elected on a platform of nativism and white backlash, one which has made inroads to collaborate with other international far-right movements and backers in Russia, France, the UK, Austria, the Netherlands. This is a new situation. When the NRA publishes advertisements calling its members to prepare for a civil war that is a big deal. Additionally, White Supremacist and Right Wing Terror organizations have represented the vast majority of domestic terror attacks over the last decade.

• Bad Taste

  Hey op what are your thoughts on Isis killing 13 people including children in Barcelona. Are you gonna make a “Dear White Europe” list now.

• nathaxnne walker

  I have indicated already that I have no interest in engaging whataboutism. That said I am saddened and horrified by what happened in Barcelona. I will also say that I am completely and passionately opposed to ISIS as an organization, opposed to their aims, opposed to their ideology, opposed to their tactics. I am also against anyone who intentionally drives a vehicle into a group of people to hurt and kill whatever their affiliation might be.

Now I respond:

Anyway, I’m going to stop with the responses here, mainly because this is as far as it’s gone up to now, and this post is getting long.  I’ll update it if a significant response occurs (ie, an actual discussion occurs).  But one last thing, I believe Trump responded appropriately to this whole thing both times.  Condemning both sides for the violence, then explicitly condemning the neo-nazis.  Because both sides were at fault.  The only thing that really gives the anti-Trumpers the greater illusion of moral high ground is that it ended up being a lunatic on the side of the neo-nazis who drove his car into people instead of someone from the other side.  This is an escalation of the violent divide, and it’s only going to get worse, and eventually both sides are going to be resorting to even more violent measures.  And I see this as an inevitability because both the mainstream media and Democrats (and some Republicans) are furthering this divide with their biased views, and them doing anything but calling for unity.  Not to mention I’m pretty sure the Charlottesville mayor, and possibly the governor, were in on this, telling the police to funnel the white supremacists towards ANTIFA, then to stand down and let them fight, have violent incidents occur, wait for someone on the “alt-right” to do something violent and drastic (as they’ve been trying to do in several clashes prior to this one where the police also stood down), and then use the incident as an excuse to attack Trump, divide the nation, and try to put things back to what they consider “normal.”

[I normally don’t like Alex Jones, but every now and then he states something that is worth saying.  He does get out there with conspiracy theories though, particularly when he talks about globalists, so I’d say ignore that bit if you can.]

And on top of that, I agree with some of the “white” protesters (not all of them are neo-nazis who protest because they believe the white class is in danger and everyone else should suffer, those people suck, I’m referring to the people who have a good reason to be there).  They are protesting because they don’t want Confederate statues taken down.  They are being taken down because many believe they are a symbol for racism.  People just don’t consider that the statue means other things.  Like the statue of Robert E. Lee, a guy who wasn’t a slave owner, didn’t advocate for slavery, and only sided with the Confederates because his home state is in that territory.  A tragic figure who through unfortunate circumstances sided with the wrong side.  On the other hand, the Civil War didn’t happen just because of slavery (though that was definitely a large factor).  It also happened because the South rejected the growing form of government.

Despite what shows and some history professors may teach you, there are grey areas amidst all this.  Not everyone who fought on the Confederate side was a racist (though a large percentage of them were; pretty sure some Union guys were racist as well), not everyone who fought on the Confederate side was a slave owner (the number of slave owners wasn’t that large).  Ultimately, I’m glad the Union won, because slavery did need to get abolished.  But don’t think that was the sole reason for the war.  It was a tragic war, where many Americans died.  So why can’t there be Confederate statues to act as a reminder for that?  Why is there a push to sanitize history?  Why is it that we wish to eradicate memories of a terrible past like what Japan did with WWII?  Is it really so bad to look back on the bad things of the past, and gain wisdom/knowledge from them, so that present/future events of a similar nature can be avoided?

“Yeah. The alt-right are pretty grim. In many ways they are exactly the same. There are loads of people who do the same thing, but your people do that, too. So you’ve got no moral high ground from which to pontificate. You can shut your bitch mouth.” -Sargon of Akkad

Comment on this video:

The Coward Liberius

I’m not an ethnonationalist, but it’s been shown to me time and time again that, as a white man, violence can be committed against me at will with the full support of literally all mainstream media sources and both major US political parties. I don’t agree with 95% of what the alt right says, but if we’re playing by prison rules, I am being FORCED into a position where only one group supports my right to exist and be safe. I can’t imagine this is accidental, and I can’t imagine I’m the only one.

One last thing.  There is one story I just saw that gives me hope.  That makes me believe there are people of opposing out there willing to sit down, have a meaningful dialogue, and convince the other to change for the better, and do it peacefully without violence.  The story of a black man who convinced 20 KKK members to leave the KKK.

Update (8/21/2017)

Well, to my surprise, progress was made in that thread with nathaxnne walker.  Information is shown that is very much worth bringing over here.  So I made a response to another post he made, which was not directed towards me, but none-the-less helped get the conversation going again.

• nathaxnne walker

  Gex – I agree with you that the man who deradicalizes KKK members through befriending them is indeed a hero. We cannot rely upon his efforts alone. If we are to live in true freedom and harmony with each other we must engage in recognition of just how this nation was founded, by whom this nation was founded, using what means and how these patterns have been intentionally perpetuated to the present day. This requires structural analysis and structural change. This has been necessary since the beginning, since before the beginning. During the 1950’s/1960’s era of the fight for civil rights and an end to apartheid, fights which have never ended, it was common in mainstream media outlets to portray the Klan and Civil Rights Protestors as equally dangerous poles of extremism. This was a strategy which effectively was a metaphorical carrot with a literal stick (or worse). It allowed the daily institutional racism utilized by elected officials and police forces (both of whom frequently overlapped with the KKK) seem moderate and acceptable by comparison. Once some gains were made through collective action and many civil rights and Black Power leaders were assassinated or discredited through COINTELPRO and similar programs, the War On Drugs and Mass Incarceration began forthwith, alongside a Great Counterrevolution designed to shift American Institutions to the right over the ensuing years. Every presidential administration has upheld these principles ever since, with the result of many citizens living under the constant surveillance of an increasingly militarized police force or in for-profit prison systems. White Supremacists have been strategically infiltrating law enforcement (and other branches of the US Government) for years, adding to the existing burden of an already White Nationalist government. This situation is not tenable. I can assure you that although some who are committed to NeoConfederacy and White Supremacy/Nationalism can be swayed by kindness and persuasion, we must address how power is used, how it is formulated, how it got to be the way it is now, how it has been throughout the history of the United States.

   

• nathaxnne walker

  I would also like to add, on a rhetorical note, that if it is truly your wish to engage in peaceable and detailed dialogue with those with whom you disagree, your overtures to such a dialogue will ring less hollow if you do not include hateful and offensive slurs in your communications prior to said overture.

My response:

I would also like to add, on a rhetorical note, that if it is truly your wish to engage in peaceable and detailed dialogue with those with whom you disagree, your overtures to such a dialogue will ring less hollow if you do not include hateful and offensive slurs in your communications prior to said overture.

It’s my philosophy to be that way. Not the hatred part, you misunderstand me there. Any slurs I made aren’t intended to be hateful. But offensive, that part you got right. Offensive not for the sole intention of offending and pissing people off, but to build up tolerance. Because far too often have I witness and participated in discussion in the past that were derailed precisely for this reason. Because some people can’t take a few swear words, can’t take a few lighthearted jabs, that sort of thing. And so they refuse to participate in the discussion any further because of something so petty, regardless of the intentions of the “offending side.” Sometimes it gets to the point where they get offended about the very subject that’s supposed to be discussed.

So I do this to sap and preconceived notion of venom from the words. It’s the context that matters, not the words themselves. If they remain easily offended and leave, then all the better. I don’t like wasting my time with individuals who are (sometimes choose to be) easily offended and disregard everything else but the offensive word(s). Because by the end of it all, they just won’t listen.

And keep in mind, I wouldn’t treat anyone on here any different than I would treat myself.
I agree with you that the man who deradicalizes KKK members through befriending them is indeed a hero. We cannot rely upon his efforts alone.

Agreed. My thoughts are…
If we are to live in true freedom and harmony with each other we must engage in recognition of just how this nation was founded, by whom this nation was founded, using what means and how these patterns have been intentionally perpetuated to the present day.

…

I was thinking more along the lines of following his example. But let’s see where you’re going with this.
This requires structural analysis and structural change. This has been necessary since the beginning, since before the beginning. During the 1950’s/1960’s era of the fight for civil rights and an end to apartheid, fights which have never ended, it was common in mainstream media outlets to portray the Klan and Civil Rights Protestors as equally dangerous poles of extremism. This was a strategy which effectively was a metaphorical carrot with a literal stick (or worse). It allowed the daily institutional racism utilized by elected officials and police forces (both of whom frequently overlapped with the KKK) seem moderate and acceptable by comparison. Once some gains were made through collective action and many civil rights and Black Power leaders were assassinated or discredited through COINTELPRO and similar programs,

Ah yeah, I’m aware of COINTELPRO, and of that 50s/60s racism and such. It was messed up, and I’m still not entirely sure what their intentions were, what the goal was supposed to be. I sometimes wonder if it was as simple as racism, or if there’s something else going on. But in any case, change for the better isn’t a bad thing. The issue is what the change should be.
the War On Drugs and Mass Incarceration began forthwith,

Aren’t you making the issue a bit too large here? Wouldn’t it be wise to start scaling the scope down a bit?
alongside a Great Counterrevolution designed to shift American Institutions to the right over the ensuing years. Every presidential administration has upheld these principles ever since, with the result of many citizens living under the constant surveillance of an increasingly militarized police force or in for-profit prison systems. White Supremacists have been strategically infiltrating law enforcement (and other branches of the US Government) for years, adding to the existing burden of an already White Nationalist government. This situation is not tenable.

Ok, I’d like to see some evidence of this, some sort of citation. Some sort of evidence, specifically regarding counterrevolutions shifting institutions to the right, of every presidential administration supporting this, and of white supremacists strategically infiltrating branches of government, and that the government is white nationalist. Especially the latter portions. Because I’m not buying this, this idea of white supremacists getting into government power and promoting white power. I’ve witnessed nothing but the opposite over the past few decades.
I can assure you that although some who are committed to NeoConfederacy and White Supremacy/Nationalism can be swayed by kindness and persuasion, we must address how power is used, how it is formulated, how it got to be the way it is now, how it has been throughout the history of the United States.

And I can assure you you’re focusing on the wrong issues. And I believe the reason for this is due to your source of information, your source of influence. Show me the source, and we’ll see if it can convince me otherwise.

His reply:

• nathaxnne walker

  I can tell you that the casual and repetitive use of slurs in dialogue or public interaction does not in fact deplete their venom. We have lived through many periods where their unthinking use was entirely normative. Rather than being conducive to greater freedom, this amplifies their function of normalizing hatred, making it a part of the common experience of all. This is a signpost to those who are in the out groups that their status as an oppressed class is just how it is and how it always shall be. In individual conversation and public or semi-public interaction with people you do not know well enough to see into your intent, it telegraphs that you, the speaker of these slurs, do not care enough about dialogue to take into account the experiences and differences of others and do not care who your words hurt. Regardless of whether or not you think your words should hurt others, they will. This also signals that everything you say past that point will and should be taken as untrustworthy and in bad faith. If your intention is to have a dialogue with others, that methodology will never help. Words can liberate us and words can bind and chain just as fiercely. I am taking the time to write this in the hopes that you or anyone listening will heed what I have to say on this matter. This isn’t about infringing on the ability to say what you want when you want it. You certainly can, and I would never be one to tell you otherwise. What I am saying is that these words have a power within them beyond your personal intent. Their use has predictable consequences. One of which will be to shut off large portions of your potential audience to any argument you wish to put forth.

   

It’s at this point that I started to think that he didn’t want to reply directly to the criticisms relevant to the topic of the thread, and so was using my mannerisms, my non-PC nature, as an excuse not to do so.  That he found it intolerable, and was being a whiny little bitch who didn’t have any real support/backup for his beliefs.  So I decided to play ball, and act as courteous as I was able.  Because if he didn’t respond then, what would his excuse really be at that point?

And here… we… go.

• nathaxnne walker
  the point was more general and for future reference, but ok.

  Re: White Supremacist Infiltration specific to law enforcement has been going on for a long time and definitely contributes to our current state of affairs. The FBI was warning about this over a decade ago (although the problem is far older than that).

  www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement/

  s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf (this is the fbi report itself)

  www.theroot.com/racist-shirt-worn-by-d-c-cop-leads-to-gun-case-dismiss-1797661191

  Those are just easy-to-locate examples.

  As far as the federal government as a whole’s position re: White Nationalism/White Supremacy the evidence I can offer you is inscribed into every moment of US History. The major ones being the genocide of everyone who lived here prior to European Arrival and the centuries-long (and still continuing) importation and management of a permanent slave labor force who were regarded by the Federal Government as not being fully human in order to avoid legal and moral liability. Maintaining these policies has been the order of the day from the United States, one which it has never wavered from. We were so good at it that our efforts were the primary inspiration for Adolf Hitler’s actions in Europe. Once Emancipation occurred as a means to disempower the Confederacy and the American Civil War ended, Reconstruction lasted only a decade until Black People in America were thrown under the bus by the election of 1876 which ended Federal oversight of the postwar South in exchange for a Republican Victory in the White House. That is the prehistory to the history already listed above. Look at the Dred Scott decision or Plessy Vs. Ferguson. The US Government was founded and conducted on a basis of White Supremacy and it still operates that way.

  If you want good recent examples of how this plays out on the ground, look at the Police/National Guard/Corporate Mercenary Response to Ferguson and Standing Rock vs. the Police/National Guard response to Charlottesville.

My response:

the point was more general and for future reference, but ok.

Duly noted. Keep in mind that despite what you’ve said, my personal experiences have taught me otherwise. For instance, I’ve had discussions with people far more immature and foul-mouthed and offensive than I’ll ever be, well before I’ve adopted this philosophy (and before I’ve learned to control my temper as well as I do now; it’s not perfect control, but it’s an improvement). Withstanding their language, sometimes directed directly at me, other times it just being how they talk, I was able to engage in a discussion with them, and learn from them, as they have learned from me. And I’ve learned valuable things from discussions like that which make it all worthwhile, one of the reasons I’m willing to put up with much; even from those who aren’t foul mouthed and proclaim political correctness, yet are every bit as offensive as those people, just more subtle about it (and that honestly irritates me more than those who are up front and blunt about it).

So I’m just going to speak as politely as I can just with you, because that appears to be the only way to engage in dialogue with you without you going on a tangent about how I should talk, how I should act, rather than sticking with the main topic at hand. Each individual has their own preference. Foul mouthed people have existed long before now, and they will continue to exist long into the future, assuming we don’t end up wiping each other out.

In any case, at least now I’m convinced this isn’t some sort of debate tactic where you’re unable to truthfully respond to criticisms in a convincing way, and thus look to my “offensive nature” as an out of the discussion. From my experience, people do that too (not necessarily discussions I’ve been involved in either).
White Supremacist Infiltration specific to law enforcement has been going on for a long time and definitely contributes to our current state of affairs. The FBI was warning about this over a decade ago (although the problem is far older than that).

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement/

Interesting that you bring up the FBI statements as support for your cause when they’re the ones responsible for some of these crimes of the past (50s-60s) that you spoke of. Guess things can change.

Looking through that first link, it is an interesting article, but even the article itself admits that it speculation and likely goes against statistics. In other words, the situation could be minor, but when any instance of racist police acts are caught by the media, they blow it up to the largest proportions possible, giving it the illusion that it’s worse than it is. On the other hand, the alternative could be true as well. The most interesting line in the article I found to be this:

“Neither the FBI nor state and local law enforcement agencies have established systems for vetting personnel for potential supremacist links, he said.”

It would be dangerous, however, to suggest that more should be done to vet citizens who wish to be officers. That risks (if not altogether guarantees) crossing a line of privacy. What if the citizen isn’t part of some hate group? And even if he/she was, would that justify learning so much about his/her personal life?

The First Amendment’s freedoms of association and expression mean it’s perfectly legal for anyone to join a hate group — as long as it’s for the purpose of legal activity — and still be a member of law enforcement. They can even serve in other positions of public office. But according to the FBI memo, the government can limit employment opportunities of members “when their memberships would interfere with their duties.”

It’s a slippery slope. And there’s an uncertainty to policing bias, as pointed out in that article. Even that FBI report (which has several redacted portions) is speculatory as to the extent of this infiltration. It’s more of a “We should be prepared for this scenario, just in case,” type of report rather than a, “Law enforcement is being infiltrated at a dangerous scale,” type of report. But there is another link to another page that I found quite fascinating:

www.splcenter.org/hate-map

It states that hate groups were in very low numbers in 1999, but for some reason spiked between 1999 and 2000. I’m honestly not sure what caused that, if the Y2K paranoia and fear somehow lead to that, or the presidential election for some reason, but it happened. Of course, the numbers grew consistently ever since 9/11 (with a brief drop in 2014 before rising again). The numbers continued to rise at a consistent rate between 2000, to when Obama took office, up until 2014 (which the article states is due to the parties moving online and off the ground; personally, I think Ferguson and the rise of BlackLivesMatter and the war on cops somehow had something to do with it), but then rose again. Considering the rate at which the groups have been growing, and for how long it’s been going on, I doubt that the election of Trump had as big of an impact on this as you’re letting on, as others are letting on.

But that’s not all. Growing rate aside, it’s not just white supremacist groups which have been growing. On that same web page, it shows all the hate groups and their affiliations, whether they’re for white supremacy, or black supremacy, anti-LGBT, holocaust denial, Christians who are anti-Jewish, radical Catholics, anti-muslim, or Hate Music (I kid you not, there’s a racist music group). There’s a hate group for everything. And on top of that, according to the description of hate groups in general by this website, the groups aren’t necessarily violent (in that they commit criminal acts).

“Hate group activities can include criminal acts, marches, rallies, speeches, meetings, leafleting or publishing.”

And the definition given for White Nationalists, which compose of pretty much every white supremacist group:

“These groups range from those that use racial slurs and issue calls for violence to others that present themselves as serious, non-violent organizations and employ the language of academia.”

And the most interesting aspect of this, if the site is to be believed, is that it kinda throws a wrench into your argument. The number it gives for the total number of KKK groups as of 2016: 130

Total number of black separatist groups (as of 2015): 193

Black separatists are, “Black separatists typically oppose integration and racial intermarriage, and they want separate institutions — or even a separate nation — for blacks. Most forms of black separatism are strongly anti-white and anti-Semitic, and a number of religious versions assert that blacks are the Biblical “chosen people” of God.”

And even those numbers pale in comparison to (and I’m pretty sure as an anarchist, you’re going to love this) anti-government patriot groups. 663, more than the other 2 combined. Kinda makes me wonder why they’re not getting media attention if they’re so numerous.
So even if it is true that there is infiltration of law enforcement and government positions by white supremacist groups, it’s just as likely (if not more so) that there’s infiltration by black supremacist groups. On top of that, the statistics just don’t add up to this view that you’re pushing. You cite an instance of that officer wearing a racist t-shirt as evidence of white supremacist infiltration. But what of the other evidence showing that police, on average, are more likely to be more harsh on whites than on blacks?

www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/07/data-police-racial-bias

Not to mention an incident where a white guy stole a horse, and police tasered him, and then beat him up:

Don’t remember hearing much of an anti-cop outcry and large-scale protests after seeing that little news bit. Because the fact of the matter is that violence against whites by police is underplayed. And to be honest, it should be the same way with blacks because, as pointed out statistically in that youtube video earlier, it happens less often than it does with whites, even though they commit more crimes per individual on average.
As far as the federal government as a whole’s position re: White Nationalism/White Supremacy the evidence I can offer you is inscribed into every moment of US History. The major ones being the genocide of everyone who lived here prior to European Arrival and the centuries-long (and still continuing) importation and management of a permanent slave labor force who were regarded by the Federal Government as not being fully human in order to avoid legal and moral liability. Maintaining these policies has been the order of the day from the United States, one which it has never wavered from. We were so good at it that our efforts were the primary inspiration for Adolf Hitler’s actions in Europe. Once Emancipation occurred as a means to disempower the Confederacy and the American Civil War ended, Reconstruction lasted only a decade until Black People in America were thrown under the bus by the election of 1876 which ended Federal oversight of the postwar South in exchange for a Republican Victory in the White House. That is the prehistory to the history already listed above. Look at the Dred Scott decision or Plessy Vs. Ferguson. The US Government was founded and conducted on a basis of White Supremacy and it still operates that way.

That’s a nice history lesson and all, but you shouldn’t confuse the past with the present if the present is different from the past. You say the US Government was founded and conducted on a basis of white supremacy. That’s true, but that wasn’t the primary reason for it’s founding and conduct. As for it still operating that way, I don’t believe that for a second, not when there are black politicians, black police officers, and had a black president elected, and re-elected. The only thing that’s still similar from then and now is misinformation. Lying to the public for the sake of an agenda. The agenda in this case (and this isn’t the only one, but it’s the most relevant to this discussion) being distraction from the actual important issues, such as the issues that actually affect black people, and racism isn’t the primary one (or even the top 5):

If you want good recent examples of how this plays out on the ground, look at the Police/National Guard/Corporate Mercenary Response to Ferguson

Guess you didn’t look at that link I brought up in an earlier post. The Police/National Guard (not sure about the Mercenaries, but I’m going to assume for now they were there for the same reason) was there to keep order. Because as history has shown, when a jury doesn’t find a non-black officer guilty of killing/beating an unarmed black man (the officer was hispanic in this case), they tend to start a riot and burn things down. So of course they wanted to deploy forces into Ferguson to prevent that from happening. Except they did it while it was happening, the rioting/looting/burning was underway. You think it would be better if they didn’t go in at all and do nothing? Not to mention that Michael Brown isn’t the saint the media built him up to be, and the “Hands up! Don’t Shoot!” narrative is false:

youtu.be/hEhUP4097JM?t=2m57s
Standing Rock vs. the Police/National Guard response to Charlottesville.

I’m assuming those are 2 separate events you’re talking about there. First of all, the Standing Rock incident, I believe, is in relation to the pipeline protest, which isn’t exactly white supremacist/BLM related, so it doesn’t seem all that relevant to the topic at hand, unless something else happened there. As for Charlottesville, yeah, the police did act badly with that whole thing, funneling white supremacists directly into ANTIFA protestors, at the behest of the mayor (and/or governor) for the sake of instigating violence, promoting the message of right-wing racism in the hopes of labeling all right-wing people and republicans as racists who should be put down (judging by the comments in this thread, they’re succeeding), much like they did in Berkely on more than one occasion (the only differences being the location and the name of the mayor). I don’t exactly see how either of those cases is an example of white supremacy infiltrating the police/government. If anything, it’s a counter-example.